GordoTEK
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Research on Pan Cyan Alkaloid Changes During Storage
🕑 Added 2023-11-03 00:19:00 +0000 UTC[UPDATE: 7 month follow up data is available here].
When I sent in my entry for the previous Cultivar Cup (June 2023) I included a lot of extra material so that MagicMyco could retest things after being left in storage for a while in hopes that we could try to determine the best way to store mushrooms.
[FYI: the Winter Cup Deadline is Dec 1st if anyone is interested in sending their own samples for testing]
I have seen some prior published research that gave us a bunch of useful recommendations (like storing the mushrooms in the dark at room temp is ideal), but I felt like some of the results from that study were questionable so I wanted to see more research conducted. Also the research I have seen was with cubensis mushrooms, and I wanted to see what things would look like with Panaeolus cyanescens. My hypothesis was that the ideal storage conditions might be in powdered form (despite the popular belief that whole form is best) IF you were also using an inert gas which was recommended in the above referenced research paper (specifically I use a product called bloxygen which is argon, for this). My thinking was that the powdered form would be more compact with fewer air pockets, and the inert gas would displace the air more efficiently that way, which would help preserve the alkaloids by preventing oxidation at least of the psilocin, but also by excluding moisture which might otherwise contribute to dephosphorylation of psilocybin.
So what did the research reveal? In one respect, this experiment confirmed the finding of the published study mentioned above, from that study:
In our case 65% of the psilocybin broke down (dephosphorylized) into psilocin within the 4 month period. It made very little difference if the mushrooms were in powdered form, whole form, stored with argon, or without argon! Technically the sample stored in powdered form with argon had the best preservation of alkaloids, but the benefit was tiny and not statistically significant. Also storing powdered without argon had the worst result somewhat confirming the idea that storing them whole is better if you aren't going to use an inert gas, but again the difference was tiny and not statistically significant so I can't really make a definitive conclusion about this.
It's important to point out however, that despite all that destruction of psilocybin, the overall potency of the samples remained REMARKABLY stable over 4 months. This was actually a surprise to me. This can be seen in the graph below as the green bars representing psilocybin equivalent. The psilocybin becomes psilocin as it breaks down, so the potency is not lost, notice the red bar in the graph which is psilocin, rising substantially as the psilocybin, blue bar, goes down.
(Note: psilocybin equivalent means adding the measured psilocybin to the psilocin*[molecular weight of psilocybin=284.252/molecular weight of psilocin=204.273] this is to account for the fact that psilocin is approximately 39% more potent by weight than psilocybin (actual multiplier is 1.3915299624 * psilocin = psilocybin equivalent).
What does this mean? When properly dried (cracker dry) and stored in sealed glass jars at room temperature and out of light, after four months in storage the mushrooms were nearly as potent as the day they were put into the jars. There was only a 4% loss of potency in the sample stored in powdered form with argon. In the worst case, there was a 9% loss of potency in the sample stored in powdered form without argon and a 5% loss of potency in the sample stored in whole form without argon. Note that there could be a slight difference in the time to onset of visuals with the high psilocin samples coming on faster, and powdered material also coming on faster, but I've never seen anyone scientifically verify that (the theory being that it takes some time for the psilocybin to be converted to psilocin in the gut, and it also takes extra time to break down whole mushrooms compared to powdered). My personal anecdotes do seem to confirm this idea, aged, powdered pan cyans have given me the fastest time to visuals, as little as 20 minutes, while fresh whole mushrooms have taken over an hour for onset of visuals but there are many factors involved including dosage, time since last eating, tolerance, etc.
I am very interested in seeing a follow up on this research after one full year in storage. Psilocin is generally regarded as not being especially stable. It is possible that the samples stored in argon will show a more significant benefit by the one year mark if the argon successfully prevents oxidation as it should, but that is still just speculation at this point.
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In the news: Major Psychedelic Legislative Update
In case you hadn't heard the news, there was somewhat of a blow to the decriminalization movement recently. California's legislature actually PASSED a bill that would decriminalize natural psychedelics including mushrooms, DMT and mescaline. All that was required would have been the governor's signature. This woud have been a huge milestone as California is the largest state by population in the US. However, the bill was vetoed:
California Gov. Gavin Newsom Vetoes Bill That Would Have Decriminalized Psychedelic Mushrooms
There may be a silver lining here though, it seems that the governor's main objection was simply that the state should have rules and guidelines in place before decriminalizing. He even specifically stated that "California should immediately begin work to set up regulated treatment guidelines - replete with dosing information, therapeutic guidelines, rules to prevent against exploitation during guided treatments, and medical clearance of no underlying psychoses. Unfortunately, this bill would decriminalize possession prior to these guidelines going into place, and I cannot sign it.”
This seems like a reasonable response and implies that as soon as California does have official guidelines around the safe use of psychedelics, he may in fact pass a future decrim bill. It is also worth mentioning that activists are aiming to put a ballot measure up for vote in California in November 2024 which would separately allow voters to directly decide for themselves if they want to decriminalize mushrooms (both use and sales). So it seems inevitable that California will eventually get there...
As an aside, a woman who testified against decriminalizing mushrooms in California told the story of how her son, away at college, died after taking mushrooms. Apparently he had mistaken a container of protein powder in his room for a glass of water, then choked to death when he tried to drink the powder. I do feel her pain, this seems like such a tragic story, but that type of incident is so rare I've never heard of anything like it ever happening before (see the comments section, I am now very skeptical that this death had anything to do with mushrooms, it turns out "dry scooping" protein powder was a stupid viral trend that many people have died from and I'm guessing this is the more logical explanation for the young man's death). I guess if anything it emphasizes the need for more education, when you trip keep hazards away, use a sitter when possible, especially for a first time experience, and always have a little bottle of water nearby to sip as needed. But I wonder if this woman or other people even know that according to statistics from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism an estimated 1,519 college students ages 18 to 24 die from alcohol-related unintentional injuries EVERY YEAR in the US alone. You have to put things into context! Heck 3,000 people die from aspirin every year. A lot of people die playing sports but we don't ban sports, or car crashes but we don't ban cars.
I'd be surprised if more than 20 people died from anything directly related to psychedelic mushrooms in the last decade! Probably a few people died from misidentifying wild mushrooms that were poisonous, perhaps a few died from accidents while under the influence, and I know of one reported incident where a man with a heart condition died while on mushrooms (they can elevate blood pressure and heart rate just like a roller coaster could, or even exercising could, people like this could have a heart attack from lots of things). It seems abundantly clear that alcohol is much more dangerous than mushrooms, so why do so many people seem to think the opposite? Education is still very much a problem when it comes to psychedelics, but I think we are making progress. For more details on this topic see the FAQ question "What are the risks of using psychedelics?"
(Source: Drug harms in the UK: a multicriteria decision analysis)
Blessings to you,
Gordo
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Links to all of my TEKs, Videos, Trip music, and frequently asked questions with answers can be found here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/22774475 (everything is made available for FREE, I do not use pay walls, support the work only if you feel like you've benefited from it and you are able to do so). People have told me my work has helped them overcome depression, addictions, PTSD, relationship issues, direction in life, and to have important, meaningful, sometimes life changing mystical experiences. I feel honored and blessed to play a small role in this. That is my reward.
Comments
GordoTEK
I haven't put oxygen absorbers to the test yet but Altitude Consulting did some research on them and it was not favorable. The O2 absorbers contain a little moisture which may be counterproductive, also they are very slow to absorb oxygen, and every time you open the jar that starts all over if it even still has the capacity to absorb any more.
GordoTEK
Over the top, but I like it! 😂👍🙏
Justin Keys
From personal observation, pans harvested wild in summer are still potent when I finally run out late winter. I keep them dried, ground up in a mason jar with moisture absorber in my wardrobe. Go pans
tripld
Hum, I was sitting here over thinking this preservation thing. How about an Oxygen Absorber Packet in a Vacuum Sealed Bag put in a black painted mason jar filled with Argon Gas!.. On paper seems to work. Who knows, worth a try I guess.
tripld
Oxygen absorber packet in a vacuum sealed bag seems to work for quite some time. My goto method
Nick S
Any research on oxygen absorbers vs argon? From what I've read, the argon just displaced the oxygen, which keeps the dried fruits from being exposed to air. I feel like an oxygen absorber would accomplish the same thing but have no data to back it up. Oxygen absorbers are pretty cheap too.
Jerry Howard
Is there a link to research that shows dehydration at higher temps is better than air drying or lower temps? Basically, what is the best?
Jeff Baker
Hi, I'm new to your Patreon. Reading this article, I was wondering why vacuum sealing jars after throwing in a desiccant pack or two weren't part of the testing? Does its absence imply it's not a good method?
MaxTorque
It's interesting to note that Newsome is probably looking at the Canada model. It is my understanding that Canada only allows use at centers and those centers have monitors who make you stay there and gives you only what is suggested by guidelines. The monetary gain being from licensed centers and licensed monitors who have to renew their license annually. It's also worth noting that the cost is prohibitive to the consumer. One thing I know for sure? With all the suggested uses for ailments like PTSD, Addiction and other ailments I expect a fight from them as currently they hold the cards with thier SSRI inhibitors. Whatever it will look like IMO will be outlined and done in lock step with them. Unfortunately, I hope I'm wrong
Ozzie Sutcliffe
Thanks fyi I have a hplc system now.
Andre G
What it comes down to is just another tragic case of a teenage boy living life too fast
GordoTEK
Yea it does seem questionable, if he was alone and died they can't know for sure exactly what happened. Actually your skepticism made me do more research and I think you may be on to something! It turns out "dry scooping" protein powder is or was a stupid viral challenge that multiple people have died from. There were viral videos encouraging people to dry scoop protein powders. If you Google it you will see all the details: deaths+from+dry+scooping+protein+powder I think it is far more likely that something like that happened. The parents probably blamed the mushrooms because they didn't want to accept the more logical explanation that their kid just did something very dumb and choked to death. Now I'm wondering if they even have any evidence that he was under the influence of mushrooms at the time of death or if they just made wild assumptions? Also blood levels of psilocin could potentially have revealed when he took the mushrooms if he even took them at all. I wonder if they even did an autopsy? If so perhaps it could be tracked down. Yea the more I think about this, the more I think this death probably had nothing to do with mushrooms.
GordoTEK
I have heard of honey being used to preserve mushrooms but I'm skeptical about it and would like to see proper scientific evidence for it. My doubt comes from the fact that honey has around 20% water content. I believe making the mushrooms cracker dry for storage is important, water is required to dephosphorylize psilocybin. Indeed there is scientific evidence confirming my hunch: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9587797/ Notice how the mushroom samples in honey contained zero psilocybin. The other problem is dosing, there is no way to measure a dose after it goes into honey, even in the published research above they say they could not quantify the psilocin. That means you would have to measure out the dose before you put it into honey and use one jar for every dose. Seems like a pain to me.
GordoTEK
Another cool thing is that you can keep using the argon over and over, it is never destroyed, so say you have emptied that jar of mushrooms, but kept it upright, the argon is still in that jar and can be used again either in the same jar or even transferred to a new jar by flipping it over the new jar. You can think of it sort of like a jar of water only water tends to grow bacteria and argon doesn't 😁
Andre G
A good trip feels like a dream but ive never mistaken anything for anything else while tripping. The protein powder story is suspect to me implying that there was more to the story. Anyway, the governers response does seem reasonable. The worst part of mushrooms is the rough come up and if youre inexperienced and prone to anxiety, I can understand where the people who call for help come from.
Andrew Murphy
Great info, thank you for your research! Do you have any thoughts/interest in blue honey as a storage method?
GordoTEK
Another thing you can do is heat the glass jar up first (you can use a hair dryer or heat gun or put it in an oven) then after you put the mushrooms in and seal it up, it will form a vacuum seal. This just slightly reduces the air and moisture in the jar. Some people use vacuum sealer devices and bags instead of jars. Some people also store with dessicant and/or O2 absorbers. I'm not sure that any of these things make much of a difference truthfully, but probably can't hurt. I believe the most important thing is simply getting the mushrooms absolutely fully dry before storing them.
Ryan Parfet
I like to put my dried mushrooms in a jar with a self healing injection port. Then I use a syringe to suck out as much air as I can. Haven’t tested potency but seems like the right thing to do
Ronald Hinchley
You'd think having the base stabilized it. I guess pickling to convert to psilocin acetate before drying wouldn't help here.
DrLlama
Thanks for the update! For what it's worth, I have a close family member who grew a large batch of cubes over 30 years ago, dried them down very well, and still uses the supply to this day! This certainly aligns well with your data and bodes well for your 1 yr stability timepoint :) Such sad news about California's Newsom vetoing the bill!
Vidi In HD
Good stuff. 👍
GordoTEK
I would recommend looking for a psychedelic society in your state, most major cities seem to have one and some have state level groups like: https://www.meetup.com/arizona-psychedelic-society/
GordoTEK
No, that's one of the cool benefits of using argon, it is heavier than air, as long as you keep the jars upright, and romove the contents carefully (maybe using a spoon for example) the argon isn't going anywhere and you won't lose any. Also note that by using a long stem lighter you can actually check where the argon level is in the jar, as you carefully lower the flame it will go out as soon as it hits the argon. You can even save it after the jar is empty or transfer it to a new jar just by flipping it upside down quickly over another jar (let it sit for a couple of minutes to ensure all the argon as moved into the new jar).
Hey Mama
Fascinating report. Looking forward to the results of extended observation (1 year mark and even beyond). Truly grateful for the work on this. Regarding decrim efforts throughout the U.S. experiences like the mother you mentioned in your post and recently the off duty pilot who mentioned intaking mushrooms with 48 hours of the in-flight event resulting in his subsequent event, though rare deserve our attention because it supports the need, as you mentioned for a focus on education, safety practices and support. Long road ahead but I think we are making incremental progress. Thank you for the post, always great reading your updates!
Work Smarter
Great read! I appreciate the time and effort put into this. I'm looking forward to the 1 year update.
Ozzie Sutcliffe
Great job Gordo. I am looking for a group that is working on decriminalization in AZ. Do you have a reccomendations ??
BlueJay
Thanks, man. Do you recommend using the argon spray every time the bottle is opened? I’m using cotton and dry packets in there too. Hoping to keep >1 year.
Jonathan Gomez
This is some great research and really appreciated. Thank you Gordo.
