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Godslayer Lysette: Chapter 263

🕑 Added 2024-11-07 12:54:47 +0000 UTC

Comments

Jessica

Not quite what I meant. Of course, the Terean soldiers don't deserve death after they capitulated. I merely meant since they are the attackers they have the burden of deescalation. And I certainly do see the burden of deescalation on Lyse for when she overstepped and I am not at all in agreement with her that she has a right to murder all the gods just because she has been wronged by some of them. Also I don't see Ciricu as Lyse invading Terea because Diversity also demands a right to secession which I think is more what happened there.

Bielna

This time I will be the one to point out that you are the one who seem inconsistent. You claim that those soldiers have no right to live for attacking a town that they were informed hosted a Demonic cult, and whose inhabitants had massacred twenty guards sent to apprehend a criminal. Furthermore, after learning that those orders were invalid, they haven't tried to fulfill them again and even accepted to help their captors. That is, in addition, to the fact that Ciricu became rebels in the first place because Lysette violated the laws and custom of Terea on her first visit there, then escalated the situation further with public and open defiance and killings. Compare that to Mirae and Lysette attacking Marol and Kattor, murdering and torturing nine of their defenders for money, or to Kristil, Danitha and Ari following the Domarian orders to mobilize and engage on the front lines, or even to Lysette, Serrena and Mirae explicitly acting to destroy the current order including the position of faiths and deities unrelated to Asterion. Each of them have circumstances (some good, some not) and varying amount of damage caused, and each act represents some form of violation of someone else's cultural environment, but you seem to only condemn to death the Terean soldiers. Edit : I'm not saying that all those acts demand death penalty, quite the opposite, I fail to understand why the Terean soldiers shouldn't get their own chance to be forgiven considering the circumstances behind their attack and the fact that they have already lost their ability to Cultivate and their freedom.

Jessica

We might actually be stuck on the differences between "our Domains" again. Diversity demands a sanctity to someone else's cultural environment where I consider the soldiers to have forfeit their lives when they overstepped it, while Vindication demands a more measured response in relation to how much of a threat the attacker actually posed.

Bielna

I don't think that's really practical, even Lysette isn't so naive as letting people go back to Terea on a promise, which is why she depowers them first. If the idea is that the "defeated" Cultivators must prevent each other from engaging in combat... I think this is roughly equivalent to being treated as PoW, in which people are spared but locked and under surveillance, and won't try to kill their jailers. It's still uncomfortable to imagine civilians treated as soldiers, though. I think we can make an exception for those who can't fight (children and elderly) and their caretakers ? Or maybe if the agreement goes back earlier : even if they can Cultivate, anyone not wearing an uniform will not engage in combat even against hostile invaders, as long as said invaders do not harm civilians.

Bielna

It's consistent with her saying that she will damn herself to protect Ciricu, though. I wouldn't call it a relapse, it simply contrasts the moments when she doesn't see evil acts as necessary. But she has been moving in this direction intentionally since the beginning of this book and is keeping to her current path. But as was my complain back then, what I fear is that her "damning herself" would be something that others, not Lysette, pay the price for. Which would be the case if that spying becomes the reason Rolf and/or Beatrice go back to Terea while Lysette and Mirae get away without facing any consequences. Edit : Also, that's why I would consider both the case where Mirae isn't caught, and the one where they are but Rolf and Beatrice don't turn coat, as "good" outcomes. Either way Lysette damns herself and Mirae by abusing her power and violating the privacy of others, but at least in those cases, no one else ends up paying the price.

Jessica

I concede that point. She decided so without consulting anybody and even shutdown Mirae's attempt at a counter point and that is at least a severe relapse on her character growth.

Bielna

Yeah, I'm a bit on the pessimistic side. But considering Lysette is acting exactly in line with what Beatrice was angry about, I'd give a 50:50 chance for her, at least, to turn coat after seeing her accusations confirmed. The want for peace comes from not attacking others gratuitously... And Mirae spying on their private conversations is an attack. Remember when Lysette said that spies deserve a summary execution ? If at least it was a communal decision... I hate spying, but if a representative share of the community decided it was necessary for its safety, I would find it more acceptable. At least, at that point, it becomes a question of whether you want to be part of such a community or not. On the other hand, a handful of extremely powerful individuals deciding this on their own and in secret ? And it annoys me that Lysette is going to get away with it. I'd love, if the spying is revealed, to see Solanna holding Lysette and Mirae by the scruff of their neck, in front of the central place of Ciricu, and have them tell everyone exactly what they did to violate the privacy of Rolf and Beatrice ; all the while those two accept this as a sufficient punishment and decide not to hold any more grudge. But that's never going to happen. In general, there is pretty much never any consequence to Lysette's actions... because she is powerful, and in Aimarion, the powerful can do whatever they want. We've seen that multiple times on both the protagonist and antagonists' sides. Okay, let's be optimistic. No handing by the scruff of the neck and confessing in front of all of Ciricu, but instead Beatrice outs Lysette and Mirae in front of all the people who were around this table then punches them in the face, after which they shake hands and agree not to take openly hostile acts towards each other. I can actually see this as possible... but I have to be really optimistic about it. The actual outcome I see as both very likely and positive is that Mirae doesn't get caught. But then it's a case of "tyrant couple deciding in secret to spy on people's private life and get away with it" situation, which is bitter for a good outcome.

Jessica

If there were such a thing as a 'good soldier' there would be an interesting alternative: You could as a cultivator agree that you are defeated and could be killed and stay out of the war from that point onward knowing that the option of being spared in exchange for that agreement is only on the table so long as everybody abides by it. But it is like with cops, once the 'good' ones are found to protect the bad ones they are no longer good.

Jessica

Not necessarily. Because Lyse made it absolutely clear to Rolf that she is protecting Ciricu. So I'm not sure the spying should come as such a surprise given Rolf already understood the threat Lyse was making. By leaving the siblings alive and telling them about their divinity Lyse has taken a risk even though she had every reason not to. And so if and when the spying ultimately will be revealed it would be on the siblings to not turn to becoming enemies even though they have every reason to. The want for peace has to come from both sides and Lyse has made an offering but the siblings haven't yet, so I feel like it is on them to make a show of not becoming enemies even if they won't be allies. I do agree on the tyrant bit though, but I wonder how much of that is because Lysette is the main character and narrative convention dictates that the plot progresses through the choices of the main character.

Bielna

In a slightly better world civilians would have some protection, but Aimarion isn't such a world. Better to have them being able to fight back, I suppose, or at least I prefer everyone to have the ability to do something. On the other hand, it's also a dangerous path. We saw in the previous chapter's discussion on handling Cultivator prisoners, and in what happened with Ft. James. Training everyone as a Cultivator means that if an army takes a village, they have to, by the standard military practice of Aimarion, execute everyone systematically because of the danger represented by Cultivators. So giving everyone power is an improvement against bad soldiers who would attack civilians anyway, but it means good soldiers who would have spared non-combatants can no longer do so. ... I wish Lysette could share her Essence drain technique. Edit : I remember that Kristil mentioned executing Cultivator prisoners after interrogation, but also it came up in yesterday's discussion that after the large-scale battle, a number of weak Cultivators were taken prisoners. It's possible that civilian Cultivators would be handled the same way by an ethical army, treated as prisoners of war but not systematically executed. We don't have enough details about the logistics behind taking Cultivators as PoW to make sure.

Bielna

Not sending them was more dangerous but it was the right thing to do. Especially in a world where the purpose is to make people equal and able to defend themselves through Cultivation, it makes no sense to violate someone's privacy under such grounds. If Mirae is caught, neither them nor Lysette is going to be the one paying the price, feeling violated and channeling that anger towards their own doom. If Lysette wasn't an absolute leader, Mirae being caught would mean both of them have to pay for the criminal choice of spying on people's private conversations. In that case it would almost be fine, the ones committing a crime paying the price for it. But because she is an absolute leader, what can we expect to happen if Mirae is caught ? Everyone will look the other way, at most scold Lysette without any actual weight behind it, and no one will give Rolf and Beatrice a reason not to turn against Ciricu. I wish I could put more faith in the characters, especially Serrena and Solanna, but I really can't. Their allegiance to Lysette is too strong and I don't think they will ever actually do anything even after seeing her do wrong. Serrena already proved that in books 2 and 3, and I'd be surprised if Solanna was different.

Bielna

It's funny how Serrena and Lysette are so sure of themselves that everyone need to get involved... When they really don't. Like, the only one that didn't freely choose to get involved is Aurella, because she was pressured by her mother, and that's more a product of the ties she already had. Solanna could easily have stayed in her corner, and Aurella could choose not to get involved further with either side. Heck, even now Serrena has practically no significant ties (Rayleigh and Lysette are the only ones really keeping her where she is) and could walk out at any time (not true of Lysette, though). She won't, but that's her choice, not a product of her divinity. Last part is a terrible idea, Mirae better not fuck this up. If the twins realize they are being distrusted and spied on, they will have a legitimate reason to turn coat. Even if I understand the reasons, they should understand how oppressive it's going to feel especially given that they're already the absolute leaders of the town. And they both know it's a shitty thing to do, they aren't even informing their allies... Tyrant couple :-( Thing is, it's not just being seen as a tyrant that will be the consequence. In the worst case, she will be seen as a tyrant, attract legitimate hostility as those two turn coat, and remorselessly kill them for fighting back under the thinking that a tyrant should be brought down. I hope it won't come to that, and that Rofl and Beatrice will not go back to Terea, but that this is a possible scenario is ironic, considering yesterday's conversation was all about holding people accountable if they don't try to bring down tyrants. Then again, I find this development interesting. So we can see the best scenario instead, hope they will accept this revelation, awaken as their own demideities, and channel their anger and discomfort with the situation in Ciricu by helping people awaken and take responsibility for themselves, seeking equity rather than flock to Lysette and her mini-pantheon.

Ria Corvidiva

Politics is war with words instead of weapons. And while the enemy of your enemy might be your ally today, they might just be your enemy when the dividing lines change ever so slightly. And pretty much. The conflicts might be bloodier, but better that civilians can defend themselves than be helpless and at their attackers' lack of mercy.

Jessica

Before this chapter there were clear front lines with our side here and the enemy over there. Now the lines a blurred and some might not even know themselves whether they are ally or enemy. It had been said that war was the last resort of politics, but it is actually the other way round, politics is the first act of war to force people to take a side. And by sending Mirae to spy Lyse might have pushed the twins to becoming enemies, but I agree that not sending them was even more dangerous. Also as real life conflicts as well as the very beginning of this story has shown there are no civilians in a war. Especially women are always a target for violence and the only question an attacker asks is whether you are an enemy that fights back or one that doesn't.


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